Debate over whether God commands Israel to build the Temple and
the Church's role in it
Below are excerpts from a discussion with a brother in the
Sabbath-keeping Church of God:
It is interesting how God uses Duality in the scriptures, but
isn't it always true that the "physical" type always precedes
the "spiritual" fulfillment?
That's true, but are you denying the "Elijah" prophecy has been
relevant more than once? By your human reasonings it could've
only been used once, the "Elijah" of John the Baptist only,
which our critics contend, and Mr. Armstrong or the Two
Witnesses (the leader of the two) couldn't be "in the spirit and
power of Elijah."
You would again be limiting how layered the prophecies of God
can be when Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Temple and later in
the Ephesus era the great apostasy began and culminated in a
pagan pope pretending to be God, yet you don't deny that such an
evil attitude, a polluted person hasn't defiled God's Church in
these latter days, so why would you try and deny that there
can't be a Temple with Europe's wannabe divine emperor
proclaiming himself God? I say DUALITY can be as often as God
chooses it to be applicable and the prophecies clearly show it's
happened time and again.
I confess, I do not know what God wants physical Israel to do
now.
I confess I do: "Remember the Law of Moses" (Malachi 4:4). God
restored Judah to the Land, liberated Jerusalem and expects them
to follow through with their divine duty to build God's House
upon His Temple Mount.
I do know what Stephen said to the Jews in the book of Acts:
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made
with hands; as saith the prophet
Who said He did? I do know you need to remember CONTEXT. He was
speaking to that generation who had literally seen and rejected
Yashua, "God with us."
Have you forgotten that Yashua called the Temple "My Father's
House?" That it was only after THAT GENERATION rejected Him that
God rejected, for the most part, THAT GENERATION?
Did God dwell within "God's House," Ambassador Auditorium? Have
you missed where Jesus made clear reference to the Temple,
speaking against those who would be where they ought not?
trespassing in the MOST HOLY PLACE? Some professing Christians
would say there's no such place, that the Church is the only
"holy place" and important "Temple" and they would be dead
wrong! Blind to duality and the God-ordained role for the
physical and the spiritual, each important to God.
Have you forgotten Solomon's dedication prayer at the Temple God
ordained him to build?
1 Kings 8:27-29
27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and
the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this
temple which I have built! 28 Yet regard the prayer of Your
servant and his supplication, O LORD my God, and listen to the
cry and the prayer which Your servant is praying before You
today: 29 that Your eyes may be open toward this temple night
and day, toward the place of which You said, ‘My name
shall be there,' that You may hear the prayer which Your servant
makes toward this place.
The true servants of God have always known that the House of
God, the Temple of God, is merely like an "Embassy of the
Eternal" as I refer to it within Beyond Babylon: Europe's Rise and
Fall. And, as such, it deserves our respect and honor as
is due, even as Daniel continued to face Jerusalem in his
prayers, turned purposely towards the Temple Mount.
What has a Temple to do with us who are the Temple of
God????
Are you no longer a physical Israelite now that you've become a
spiritual Jew? Are you no longer a man because spiritually in
Christ we're neither male or female, Gentile or Israelite? Paul
was a physical Israelite and a spiritual Jew and didn't forget
it! He went out of his way to go up to Jerusalem, according to
the Law, to keep the biblical festivals at the Temple! Do you
deny this? Read the Book of Acts and see for yourself, and see
what a great difference in attitude the early Church had towards
fellowshipping and worshipping in the physical Temple! They
didn't consider themselves so superior and spiritual that they
shunned it!
If you're part of the Temple of God then you should rejoice that
God has been faithful to physical Israel and Judah, and rejoice
that Judah is prophesied to remember the Law of Moses (that will
bring them this time to Messiah, since God will soon lift the
blindness as He has prophesied) and repent of their woeful
neglect of the Temple Mount that is presently under a
Nazi-Muslim occupation, a disgrace to the God of Jacob and a
shame for us (physical Israelites and Jews).
What physical Israel does will be God's will but He has shown
us nothing in His word that would indicate that we should
rebuild a temple devoted to physical sacrifices before He comes
again.
I never said the Church is supposed to build the Temple. It's a
great start if God's Church would at least recognize that God
has given this biblical responsibility to our Jewish brethren,
to the NATION of Israel, but I would hope that we would at
least, in attitude if not in actions, support such a holy
endeavor. It's sad and interesting, quite telling, most
revealing, that such an uproar never occurred when Mr. Armstrong
taught THERE IS A PHYSICAL PREPARATION FOR THE COMING OF A
MESSIAH, as well as a spiritual! Where were all the "spiritual"
brethren hiding out when Mr. Armstrong was excited about the
City of David archaeological digs in Jerusalem, Israel in
cooperation with Hebrew University? Where was the outcry about
that's none of our business, we're past that now since we're so
spiritual?
God's Word calls for the NATION (I never said the Church) to
build His House of Prayer for All Peoples, and Jesus said He did
not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets - that command is
still in effect since His generation of Jews were punished with
Jerusalem and the Temple's destruction and their dispersion, but
this is a NEW GENERATION, a generation of Jews who are
prophesied to welcome King Messiah, for Yashua said He wouldn't
return and the Jews and Jerusalem wouldn't see Him again until
they had this change of heart and attitude that's coming, the
Temple is part of it, saying "Blessed is He who comes in the
Name of the Lord!" JESUS CHRIST IS FOCUSED ON JERUSALEM AND HIS
PHYSICAL BRETHREN THE JEWS, while working simultaneously with
the Church. But mind you that we're going to Jerusalem! They're
not coming over here or to any of the many Church headquarters -
but to JERUSALEM! I guess that physical location is still
important to God and it should be to those who claim to belong
to Him.
You know it is a dangerous thing to get ahead of God in a
thing. Zionism has to do with God bringing His people back to
their land and God rebuilding their Temple and God ruling over
the entire world, NOT Judah!
Read your Bible again and see how God brings Judah back and
works with them once they're back in the Land, and that God
brings them back through people, human instruments, not on a
magic carpet, and that God build His Temple through His Jewish
hands, just like He always has, since God is consistent. And in
the World Tomorrow, converted Judah will be the leader as God
has ordained under the Kingdom-Family of God.
The New Covenant will be made available to physical Israel
when God is ready but it is available to us RIGHT NOW!
In principle, but it will not take full effect until the
Resurrection to perfection, when God's LAW is truly written upon
the tablets of our hearts and minds forever.
No Temple built today will carry over into the new world in
any case. The destruction will be far to great for that.
There isn't any mention of the Third Temple (that God reveals in
Revelation 11:1) being destroyed. Malachi gives every indication
it will be standing and in need of cleansing and a purification
of the priesthood, which Christ NEVER did when He came before.
Think about that, and don't try and spiritualize away the
Levites and sacrifices and all, because the Church will have
already been made ready, as the spiritual Temple, for Christ's
coming! Malachi shows the Messiah - who is more than a man -
comes to HIS Temple! Again, God claims the physical Temple as
His own.
If the Jews build a new Temple what design do you think they
will use? Solomon or the description in Ezekiel?
They'll use everything God inspires them to, as God has given
this responsibility into their hands, not the fickle and
Gentilized Israelites. They'll prayerfully take everything into
consideration and get it right, and God puts His seal of
approval on it since He refers to it as the "Temple of GOD."
Interesting. If the sacrifices could be made without a temple
why aren't the Jews doing so?
For the same reason they haven't built the Temple YET. The Feast
of Tabernacles is over and the traditional books to read are
Ezra and Nehemiah. I encourage all to read them. They reveal the
sacrifices were restored BEFORE the foundation of the Temple was
laid!
Christ told the Samarian women that we would no longer be
looking to a physical place of worship but we would Worship the
Lord in Spirit and TRUTH.
He was making a point and not disrespecting the most holy place
on Earth, the Temple Mount, especially since HE is the God who
said that place ALONE is where He would place His Name and have
HIS House! God doesn't contradict Himself. Jesus also said
"salvation is of the Jews and we know who we worship," and all
the Jews knew they could pray anywhere, as the NT reveals they
prayed in places other than the Temple, but for OFFICIAL
NATIONAL WORSHIP they gladly met where God had placed His Name:
the Temple Mount.
Please note that in answer to the direct question about WHERE
she should worship God Christ, in essence, told her it did not
matter. We would worship God in Spirit and did not need a place
to do so.
If you're worshipping God in spirit and in truth, "thy Word is
Truth" and the Word of God reveals that Christ will command all
nations to come up to Jerusalem, to worship the King of Israel,
and learn Torah at THE TEMPLE! Maybe Jesus just doesn't get it
and isn't as spiritual as some think they are!
Again, I said it would be great for God's Church to at least
recognize that God has commanded ISRAEL to build the Temple, but
hopefully God's Church would have this same holy and excited
attitude:
Isaiah 2:2-3
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the
[Temple] mountain of the LORD's house Shall be established on
the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it. 3 Many people shall come and
say,
" Come, and let us go up to the [Temple] mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And
we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the
law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Please remember that the reason given for doing that, David,
was to try and stop the Jews from killing him. (Paul's
literal sacrifice at the Temple with other Jews)
May you refresh your memory and read it again and see that was
not the reason! His reason, listening to the Jewish Church
elders, was to PROVE that he still kept the Law and the Jewish
customs, unlike all the lies against him were saying.
I do not care if the temple is rebuilt.
That is a casual attitude that is most selfish. We should hope
and pray the Jews repent of their woeful neglect of the Temple
Mount and build the Temple since God has commanded THEM to do
so. Are you only concerned about yourself and not our nation and
peoples?
You seem to be blending them in some way I do not find in the
bible.
Ever heard of Paul the Benjaminite?
We have God's Holy Spirit within us. He is Tabernacling with
us even now, David. This is not something national Israel has
available.
The Law and the Prophets prove otherwise. Our Israelite and
Jewish brethren are sanctified as the children of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob and God's spirit in times past was only in our
prophets, but through them was in and with the NATION. Besides,
holy men and women filled with the Holy Spirit loved the holy
Temple!
A physical temple is not something God's church should be
involved with at all, in this age.
But teaching English to Thai people is? Or buying gifts of
Steuben crystal for world leaders or being involved in other
different physical projects? What a corner-Church mentality that
I would hope God's people would break free from who haven't
already!
Again, God has commanded ISRAEL to build His Temple and I'm
excited they soon will, and I would hope the Church would at
least encourage them to obey God as they're given to understand
Him at this point in time - not carp from the sidelines like
those evil men you'll encounter (who opposed God's Work in Judah
and Jerusalem) in the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah.
Those who truly are Children of Light will see and recognize the
fulfillment of prophecy taking place, recognizing the Temple as
a magnificent SIGN of how close we are to the Two Witnesses'
worldwide ministry from Jerusalem, with a special message to the
cities of Judah, and rejoice knowing King Messiah is on His way!